In this interview we continue to follow the journey of Bob from Sixty Skills as he journeys to the outer planets and beyond into the extra solar region with his private group maintaining the focus of learning letter magic and gaining wisdom from planetary spirits who specialize in Kabbalah.
Personally, I think this is extremely important work as it encourages people to keep moving (no glass ceiling), to do the work, to work methodically and logically taking ownership over our progress, as Bob often mentions taking an engineering approach to the work. This post also marks the release of the next phase in the Sixty Skills curriculum, following the Master Course which provides a path similar to that found in Initiation into Hermetics but with a curriculum designed to be completed in around 18 months. This next phase is the Kabbalah Course which you can find more info about here.
PAA: You have been on something of a wild adventure for the last 2 years, journeying beyond where most journey to the outer planets. Do you think we are in a different age now and just like the 5-minute mile, once one person broke that barrier it opened the floodgates for others, do you see something similar happening within the Franz Bardon tradition? Or do you think it will remain the domain of just a few?
Bob: I think the engineering-based approach to teaching these things that I, and others, have begun using has taken root and is rapidly spreading. Given the time, and other prerequisites needed to do these practices, it won’t ever be something for everyone. But the number of people doing this is increasing rapidly.
Bardon and his compatriots lived in a world where the media was centrally controlled and reaching others with similar interests took weeks via snail mail. Also, people were much poorer then and had to devote much more of their time to merely surviving. None of that is true today.
PAA: Following this first question, what was the response from beings and guides that you met on the outer planets to having human beings turn up at their door?
Bob: Measured surprise is probably the best description of what I saw. The only group that seemed relatively uninterested were the Plutonian spirits and they have a reason for that…as everyone shows up eventually in their view.
Keep in mind that the reception I received largely resulted from the great deal of focus on why I went to these places in the first place. From what I’ve gathered from others, those going to these places out of curiosity generally do not receive a welcome of any kind. They are largely ignored by the entities that dwell there.
Only my focus on learning letter magic and contacting the spirits of Kabbalah on those planets resulted in the encounters I had. I suspect this would work with any goal (becoming an entrepreneur, a master engineer, etc.). But you need to have one. As these planets all work as refinements of the inner planets this would seem to make sense. You are there to refine your knowledge of something, not to gain it initially.
PAA: Now you have released the Kabbalah Course, the first of three, the second being the Planetary Kabbalah course and the 3rd the Zodiac course. You have also mentioned in the past that if people really knew about the Kabbalah, then they would want to do it. Can you take this opportunity now to explain the benefits of this work to someone who may be working through IIH or the Master Course.
Bob: To the degree magic exists in the world, the magic of the letters (i.e. Kabbalah) is magic. If someone can engage in three-point concentration (color, sensation, and sound) they can do this. It is no more complicated than that.
As a phenomenon in nature, if you follow the proper sequence of actions, you will get the appropriate result. Period.
That is why this is a science whose application follows all the normal methods involved in engineering.
It does not require the influence of an egregore. It does not require ritual. It does not impact your freewill.
Everything else requires subordination of your will to another entity. All other methods involve borrowed power be it via rituals, talismans, tools, etc. You become something else’s bitch.
In this, you are the talisman.
PAA: You mention the importance of having first learned Kabbalah and the letter combinations before working with the planets. In what specific ways did this change the nature of your relationship with the spirits compared to if you had just jumped onto the planets?
When you understand the power of the letters, you can decode, and replicate, any esoteric force being generated. This is a big deal. Merely by observing what another practitioner is doing you can replicate it. Often this is even better than the original as it is bereft of the egregoric influence most ritual/traditional systems have.
If you practice with the planets first, the spirit must run the energy for you. This creates dependency as you rely upon the spirit to get your body to generate the appropriate energy. If you know Kabbalah, then the spirit can show you how to do something and then you can do it on your own.
It is the difference between doing someone a favor and teaching them how to do it on their own.
Just as with people, this changes the nature of the relationship dramatically and quickly. I’ve often had sprits tell me, “Don’t copy my energy, copy the energy of what I am doing.” It has gone as far as having spirits ask, “what are you doing here?” if I contacted them after they had shown me how to do something a few times. Emnasut was not all that excited the last time I directly projected myself into his realm.
As a result of this, the spirits end up engaging in much less influence over your life. This in turn greatly reduces the impact upon your freewill. Compacts between the practitioner and the spirit become much less relevant.
PAA: How much of a foundation does one need to do this work? Can we say that for serious students wishing to understand the mechanics of what is occurring a Step 8 of IIH or completion of the Master Course is required?
Bob: To work from the most simple standpoint, to get better at athletic performance, engage in the martial arts, or perform things like healing hands, a practitioner only needs basic skills. And keep in mind, specialization can be profound over time. This is how people squat 360 kilos/800 pounds. Specifically, if they can feel the energy and engage in three-point concentration, they can go far.
The more developed your subtle senses are, particularly clairvoyance and clairaudience, the clearer the transmission of energy will be. If you just have good clairsentience, you will know how to do something, but you won’t know why. Things will happen via intuition.
The scary part is that it will even work for someone without any clairsentience. The challenge here is getting them to practice “imagining” all the things needed to generate the effect when they are not receiving any sensory feedback. This is how a lot of the internal work gets lost in the martial arts over time. Students who are good at mechanics, but lack sensitivity, just start deleting the magical details as they cannot see how they are important.
This is also how a lot of cult leaders work, say in tai chi circles. They know techniques like using a strong magnetic line of force to essentially brainwash the susceptible. And their lack of sensitivity results in their not actively feeling the energetic effects of the resulting backlash. Combine this with some NLP training and you are off to the races. It won’t work on everyone, but it will work on enough people to build an audience of maybe 20-40k followers over time.
People are not complete sheep however and they eventually break away from it. That is why these cult types are constantly going through boom-and-bust cycles. It is also why they never train high level cultivators either.
Completing step eight of IIH, my Master course, or any like level of training will deepen the benefits of working with the letters.
So, to be clear. To work with the letters/Kabbalah, you only need to be able to feel energy and hold three-point concentration.
PAA: What kind of experiences did your group have as they worked on the planets with you? Was the experience of a guide one that was shared? Or were the experiences unique spending on what each practitioner brought to the table?
A mix of experiences in accordance with an individual’s level of clair (primarily clairvoyance, clairaudience, and clairsentience) skills development. All participants had common experiences based upon the nature of the entities/planets. So, everyone got Kabbalah/letter magic information.
From there, it diverged according to the nature of the individual. The liberal arts types had a hard time with the engineering spirits of Mars. The mentally constipated didn’t enjoy Uranus, etc. The whole process of the entity reflecting off the nature of the individual provided most of the differences between personal experiences.
Additional Questions Related to Outer planets & Kabbalah Spirits
PAA: Uranus – Who were the two Uranian spirits P and D that your group worked with? What was unique about their teachings on Kabbalah compared to other planetary spirits? How did they demonstrate generating forces that you were then able to mimic?
Bob: The Uranian spirits were both Kabbalah teachers and designers of machines that bring letter energies into the physical. They predominantly taught letter H, I, J and K variants. Additionally, most of the Akashic force generated had more of a letter U than letter E flavor.
They would generally run a given force for me and expect me to repeat it. This would go on for a few sessions and they would switch to something else.
And of course, they gave me the design for the Living Crystal.
PAA: Pluto – You mention the Kabbalah machines that could generate letter energy directly into your body. How exactly did this work compared to normal letter practice? What effects did you notice from having the energy generated this way?
Bob: I would essentially think of a letter combination, be transported to a cave with the specific machine in it, step up/into the machine and it would start generating the energy for me. The primary difference here was twofold: (1) most planets deal with a certain set of letters, Venus and J come to mind, while this could deal with any letter combination; and (2) the machines generated the energy at the cellular level. This allowed a practitioner to generation most of the effect of vibrating the letters with the voice without making any sound.
Since Pluto deals with a refinement of the vital body this makes sense.
PAA: Pluto – You describe finding models of ancient egregores and hint at being able to reconnect with lost magical systems. Did you or anyone in your group attempt this? What happened when you engaged with any of these models?
Bob: I can’t comment on this openly to protect the privacy of others. But if someone wanted to break into a new industry and had the prerequisite hard skills, this would make it happen very quickly. Pushing energy into one of these things made a very quick very solid connection form.
I don’t know if this would remove the need for a physical initiation into a magical lineage or not. Someone would need to experiment with this.
PAA: Pluto – The information you provide on what happens to subtle bodies after death is fascinating. Did you learn anything more about the timeframe and process of the astral body losing energy? How long can it be recharged?
Bob: The timeframe for the exhaustion of the breath that powers an astral body seems to take about a week in the real world. Some books say up to 40 days. I imagine if a practitioner had done a lot of pranayama work in life it would take longer.
The power of the elements is effectively corrosive on both astral and vital substances. Simple exposure to the astral realm gradually dissolves an astral body. Working any magic from the astral without a supporting physical body does this very quickly.
Methods exist to recharge the astral body after death. I won’t get into that here as this is where a lot of vampire myths come from.
What I will say is that you can build mental power after death by using the single pointed focus exercises.
PAA: Pluto – You describe Pluto as a gateway to the extrasolar region. Did you or your group travel beyond Pluto during this work? What did you experience in terms of entities or energies once moving past Pluto?
Bob: Yes. We made several trips. For those interested Radcu from Bardon’s 360 Heads of the Earth Zone also deals with extrasolar travel. My group invoked him a few times and he was very willing to help us out as well.
The extra solar realm is a handful. As I’ve written about previously dead planets, rouge stellar structures, cosmic Kabbalah libraries, the home of the Titans and a whole lot more lurks out there. Also, the radiation of the place is corrosive to human beings’ subtle bodies and minds plus unpleasant things lurk in the dark as well. Always remember to clear out with Emnasut (first genius of the Sun Sphere in Bardon’s second book on Practical Evocation) afterwards.
The value in doing this work seems to be in bringing concepts/ideas not native to our solar system into it. As I’ve mentioned before, Buddhism seems to be one of these. A more invested practitioner would need to explore this link fully. I’d be very curious to hear what they find. It would make an excellent topic for a book. IT might even have some degree of mass market appeal. Truly.
PAA: Pluto – You describe Pluto as a gateway to the extrasolar region. What did you experience in terms of entities or energies once moving past Pluto? Also, the idea of keeping things out as much as a gateway to other places. Were they surprised to receive human beings?
Bob: As far as being both a gateway and a barrier, Pluto is curious. Its surface looks more like a frontier garrison than anything else. The kind of place where you must be prepared for a surface bombardment at any time. Clear-cut wide-open space around the few structures to allow for a free field of fire in the event raiders show up. Hence everything being underground.
The entities seemed to be pursuing their own goals. None were truly hostile. I liken it to being a tourist in eastern Turkey. The locals would be annoyed if people showed up in number but given how rare visitors are they are mostly curious even if they don’t understand you. I’ve had more than one state things like “it has been a very long time since anyone has come here.”
PAA: Pluto – Regarding the cave of egregores, how would you recommend someone new to this determine which systems are worth exploring versus those that should be left alone? What criteria can help discern if a particular magical system still has relevance?
Bob: Trial and error unfortunately. Don’t forget to banish via Akasha and/or Solar energy afterwards. Keep Emnasut on speed dial. Working with P from Uranus it became very clear that the ancient Phoenicians practiced blood magic. Certainly not on the scale of the Meso-American groups, but it was a thing. Not pleasant. The worldview of these things is what it is. You do not generally change them. They change you.
As for relevance, vet any information you get heavily. Vet it. Vet it again. And vet it a third time for good measure. If an easier/better way exists to do something using modern technology, maybe you should just let dead things lay there instead of resurrecting them. The past was often far worse than the present. The worldview of the ancients is practically alien to the modern mind. Remember this.
PAA: Extra Solar – You discuss a cosmic Kabbalah library with different letter attributions. Did you gain any insights on how this extraterrestrial Kabbalah operates compared to our solar Kabbalah? Is it knowable or usable for those living in our realm?
Bob: The associations were different, and no I will not discuss these here, as were the energies generated. I was specifically warned to not ever/never generate those energies internally with the human body as their very existence is destructive to us. Only generate them externally to the body.
With that in mind, I am not advanced enough in my own practice to know why someone would want to learn this. Practically speaking it is only useful when outside our solar system. And every solar system has its own system. So, the cosmic version would only be used in extra solar space. I think. I don’t really know.
It may be why so many of the “channeled mysteries” the New Agers work with are ultimately so destructive to human beings. The energies are literally out of this world, and we are not designed to handle them.
PAA: Extra Solar – You describe the extrasolar region as the origin point for ideas not native to our solar system, like Buddhism and veganism. Did you learn anything more about how these ideas were transmitted or adapted to our realm?
Bob: Not really, as I didn’t pursue it. Clearly someone went out and came back. Beyond that it is hard to say. I will say the largely mental nature of the Zodiac meditations mirrors that of Buddhist practice. And may explain why so many Greeks in the Silk Road cities converted to Buddhism.
PAA: You mention that the Zodiac constellations are far removed from human existence and exert a mental influence. Could you explain more about how their distant nature enables them to affect us mentally?
Bob: It is unclear if the constellations generate mental energy writ large or if they simply provide something similar enough to work as a substitute. Think endogenous testosterone production versus exogenous supplementation.
As a practical matter, the vast distances they exist in separate from mankind makes any of the other energies they generate too far away to reach us. Vital force only reaches a few meters from the living thing projecting it. Astral force can in theory reach the ends of the universe, but this appears to take time and as collections of stars these things do not really have living breathing organic bodies to generate astral energy with.
Again, as collections of stars, they are dynamos of energy production in general. And they all have a faint angelic, or solar, nature to them. They act in an advisory function. Not a command oriented one.
PAA: When using your body as a talisman to generate the energies of the Zodiac, how long do the effects last? Is there a way to make the effects more permanent?
Bob: As a rule, 24-36 hours. Longer with greater practice. And the effects seem to become permanent with 2 hours of practice a day and running the energy in the background the rest of the time for roughly 100 days. Counterbalancing may become impossible when pursuing this. Expect some degree of discomfort. Beware what you ask for, as you shall surely get it.
PAA: You provide several methods for working with the Zodiac – seated meditation, energetic practices, and consuming charged elixirs. In your experience, which method produces the most tangible results in everyday life? What are the pros and cons of each?
Bob: Seated practice generates the quickest changes but does not last without extensive repetition. See above. Energetic is largely the most useful for healing others, martial arts, etc. But can be emotionally destabilizing and energy is ultimately a trap as it does not convert to the physical for the most part. A little is enough. More is questionable and too much is useless if not damaging. Consuming elixirs penetrates the tissues most deeply and is the preferred method for permanently changing oneself. But these take the longest to prepare and their effects may be permanent.
PAA: What kind of preparation is required for this kind of work? Is it possible to split it into two camps: those very serious practitioners who have gone through a curriculum like that in IIH or the Sixty Skills Master Course and in the other camp those who are happy to tune into these energies without knowing how everything works. Both get results but the details and information may vary in depth?
Bob: That is exactly it.
Not everyone needs to be able to drive a car like a Formula 1 racer. Most people just need a school bus driver’s level of skill. And this is how these things are done outside of Bardon’s system.
If you look at something like Xing Yi, they have five elemental based fists. Each fist has a movement. Each fist has a specific energy associated with it. Each energy has a sound, sensation, and color.
That sounds a lot like the magic of the letters / Kabbalah to me. Because it is the same. It is just a limited application.
I’ve built the Kabbalah course so that it can be completed strictly through clairsentience and included that training in the course (building the ball, astral energy, etc.). So, it is accessible to virtually anyone. This is why people who buy the Kabbalah course will see a repetition of some material from the Master course.
If people want to engage in the letters on a much more comprehensive level, then they need to complete IIH through level eight, the SixtySkills master course or a like curriculum. And this is the ideal way to do this work.
It is not the only way.
And as always, the perfect is the enemy of the good.
If you want to go from being a benchwarmer as an athlete, then the letter D is what you want to work with intensely. Just remember to counterbalance with a water letter or you’ll probably develop a disease like Crohn’s.
PAA: Your blog posts documenting these explorations of the outer planets have been inspirational to read. When you first started with KTQ doing the first key did you ever think it would lead you to where you are now with the Zodiac and Sepiroth?
Bob: I had no idea.
I just wanted to learn more letter magic.
But a journey of 10,000 steps starts with the first step. Luckily, I had a good roadmap and fell in love with it. Frankly, on some level, I’ll never retire as I have something to keep me busy for the rest of my life. Few can say this.
PAA: Of all the outer planets so far, what has been the most surprising thing for you personally? Were you somehow expecting what you witnessed or was it all completely unexpected?
Bob: All of them really…. but Pluto probably the most so. No publicly available book explicitly deals with what goes on out there. It is all just general guidance at best or surprisingly incomplete. It is odd as I’ve been privately contacted by several individuals since finishing this work and they’ve confirmed everything I’ve written about here.
PAA: Often you mention your guide for these explorations, would you experience the same guide on each visit? Or was this just on the first occasion?
Bob: E, as I’ll call him here, was there if I asked for him to be. He didn’t need to be after I learned the L-U-D letter combination. Other times I’ve made the trip with Radcu.
It’s a big world and lots of ways exist to trip the light fantastic or travel into the dark.
PAA: Thank you for continuing to share your discoveries with the community.
Sixty Skills Curriculum
Master Course: There are two ways to get involved with the curriculum. If you are unsure or just starting out, you can purchase a single course and develop a specific skill set that the single course focuses upon, this is great if you just want to work on your weak areas and filling in the gaps.
Alternatively, if you intend to take this training as far as you can and actually experience what so many can only read about then the Master Course is highly recommended as it will save money over buying single courses and it gives you every aspect required to develop yourself sufficiently for becoming Magically independent – meaning you have access to your own Akasha and Non-Dual Light.
This access to Akasha and Non-Dual Light is really the first requirement for further advanced work, without this foundation you open yourself to potential problems. The Master Course contains the ENTIRE 18-Month curriculum, over 30 separate courses giving you everything you need with structure and clear communication to bring success. See previews of all courses here.
Kabbalah Course: This is the next logical step for those who have completed the Master Course or equivalent via other methods. It also allows those who have not quite achieved those requirements a condensed path in obtaining the required skills. In Sixty Skills style Bob has you focusing on what truly makes a difference in your training, hence progress is rapid. Just as the Master Course laid an important foundation, this course lays the foundation for working with the Planets (Inner and Outer), Extra Solar and the Zodiac. For those involved in this work for some time you will realize how rare this kind of information is, the outer planets are rarely discussed much less visited. The rarity of this information further increases with extra solar and the zodiac – this is practical work of interacting with those spheres, not theory.
Planetary Kabbalah Course (Coming Soon)
Zodiac Course (Coming Soon)