This is the latest in our series of Chaos Magick Interviews (Previous Interviews here). Today’s interview comes to us as a result of me posting one of our earlier Chaos Magick interviews on Reddit. Hearing one of magicans responding talking about their practice of Chaos Magick alongside Theurgy it was impossible to not invite them to answer some questions. Huge thanks to our guest today, now on to the interview.
PAA: Can you tell us a bit about your background and how you became interested in theurgy and chaos magick?
AE: My original education is in Science, in top Schools (Medal Field Teachers…): Major in Mathematics, then Logic, Computer Science & Physics.
After this I worked in various fields to explore, including Photography, Talent Scouting, & Headhunting…
And then went back to Science with a Startup in San Francisco, which ultimately did not survive Covid. While in SF I met with open-minded people who initiated me in the field of entheogens & their impact on Psychology. I was fascinated, and got trained by MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies). At Festivals like Burning Man I was responsible for Harm Reduction teams focused on accompanying and integrating Psychedelic experiences.
At around that time, my use of Entheogens expanded my paradigm from anti-spiritual materialist, to seeker of spiritual truths. The Kybalion found me via an extraordinary Synchronicity, and Hermetic Philosophy allowed me to explore Spirituality with some structure.
Repeated Psychonautic experiences in what I realised later were environnement infused with Chaos Magick, led to the arrival of powerful Thoughtforms, and, well it went Chaotic!
At the beginning of Covid, I moved back to France, and started getting into Magic more seriously. Starting with Alchemy, Astrology, Tarot, and Chaos Magick.
I organised my system of Thoughforms with a structure, most of them became Alters (similar to Tulpas), and I used techniques from Internal Family System and Jungian Psychology.
We are now a System, named “Abrasax Family” or “Abrasax System”. At first, three of us emerged with solid definitions:
Adrien S, the Father, Scientist.
Arya Sure, the Mother, Chaos Magician & Artist.
Ærmès Abrasax, the child, Hermetist.
Theurgy became a focus of Hermès, who is extremely talented at archetypal languages, and felt an urge to connect to Pantheons.
PAA: How do you understand the concept of theurgy, and what does it mean to you personally?
AE: The Etymology (True Logos) of Theurgy is “Work with the Theoi”, or “Theoi’s Work”, Theoi being either understood as the Greek Gods (Aesir the Norse Gods, Neteru the Egyptian Gods, etc.), or the Greek name for “Gods”.
Therefore, as we value etymology (True Logos) above other definitions, we consider Theurgy to be primarily the Work with the Greek Theoi or work with any Deities using the Greek Techniques. The generally accepted definition is broader, Theurgy will be understood by most as any kind of “work with the Divine”, which we think can lead to confusions. That said, we stay open, and do not have a totalitarian way of imposing our definitions.
PAA: How do you incorporate chaos magick into your practice of theurgy
AE: Traditional Theurgy can be very tedious in its use of rigid rituals, some of which are transmitted from elders without strong reasoning as to why which symbol is better than which other.
Theurgy also puts emphasis on each words having specific Theurgic power, and needing to be properly understood, and spoken with a true voice. Thus any attempts at translation, by definition, is a massive risk to lose the effect, or worse, to end up having disastrous results. Likewise, reading the old hymns in the text while not understanding them is expected to be ineffective.
Chaos Magick, on the other hand, is a system that allows for creativity in rituals, being more focused on results than on tradition.
A word of warning, “too much freedom” can lead to Chaos… We quickly found that amazingly powerful results from Chaos Magic that were not built on solid grounds could lead to disasters, especially for one’s sanity…
We thus tried to blend Chaos Magick with the strong frameworks of Alchemy and Egyptian (Heka) & Greco-Roman Theurgy, the ones we are most familiar with.
PAA: Can you describe some of the tools and techniques you use in your practice, and how you use them to achieve your goals?
AE: Language of the Birds is one of our core tools. It is an application of Alchemy & Hermetism to Archetypal Languages, that allows for very powerful combinations, and understanding of Theurgic messages.
We write our own Hymns, use sigils, talismans, altars extensively. We designed our own rituals, by picking inspiration from all sources we felt called to use (usually via theurgic synchronicities).
Various Divination techniques like Tarot, Astrology, Runes, or Ornithomancy are also involved. Astral Travel and Dream work are very effective for us. We even use modern technologies, all the while focusing on reaching our Pantheons more effectively, as we feel it works much better to devote a ritual to specific Deity than to Chaos herself (Khaos is the Primordial Deity of the Olympian Pantheon).
Entheogens (Generate Divine Within) or Psychedelics (Manifests/Reveal the Soul) are extremely powerful tools we also use in our practice. To us they are the Nectar of the Gods, Ambrosia, the Elixir of the Alchemist, the Magical Potions, Færy Powders… But we absolutely do not recommend newcomers to work with these without proper mentors, as they can lead to extremely dangerous mental breakdowns when combined with powerful magic. We are going to repeat it: DO NOT PLAY WITH ENTHEOGENS WITHOUT A MENTOR. Really. Really important. The risks are extremely high for your mental and physical health, and the trauma generated could seriously hinder your life.
In our case, we also worked extensively on developing strong links with each Deity (and most spirits) we interact with. Our technique blends Channeling, creating Local Thoughtforms of the Spirits, Tulpamancy and Alter work for (Psychological) Systems/Multiples/Plurals. Also something that is best done with a mentor.
PAA: How do you approach personal transformation and spiritual development through theurgy and chaos magick, and what are some of the challenges and rewards you have experienced on this path?
AE: Chaos Magick has definitely unleashed creativity and growth, as well as a massive source of Energy within us. However, it has also led to some chaotic results, and serious Mental Health challenges (Psychosis, paranoïa, alienation…)
Once we added it, Theurgy (and Alchemy) brought a much-needed structure that guided us towards more stable and coherent paths. The rewards of connecting to, and understanding clearly many Pantheons, has been life-changing. The personal growth felt akin to a metamorphosis. From a caterpillar stuck onto the same plant, and only eating more and more, to a chrysalis having to take a leap of faith, let go of the old, to give birth (after some times) to the new: wings allowing us to fly in the Ær (other name of Khaos, FYI!)
PAA: How do you see theurgy and chaos magick fitting into the broader context of contemporary spirituality and religion, and how do you navigate the intersections between these different traditions and practices?
AE: To us, Chaos Magick seems to be the root of all Magic. Any Spirituality or Religion that makes use of Magic could be framed within Chaos Magick. A deep understanding of Chaos Magick and a willingness to adapt it not only to one’s own way, but to that of others, allows one to understand the Paradigm of any Magical System. Or at least we have not found one that escapes this yet.
Specific branches of Theurgy are akin to a layer of defined language that is overlaid on Chaos Magick, and allows for faster understanding of the Magic of that specific Pantheon.
One cannot access the Magic of Egypt without accepting that some symbols and words have fixed (Archetypal) meanings, and that some laws are enforced by all the hymns. It’s a language to be learnt, and Chaos Magicians cannot bend it as they wish.
In the broader context of Spirituality and Religion, I feel that all schools of thoughts which keep a door open for Magic and Diplomacy can easily be understood and navigated with pleasure with Chaos Magick and Theurgy. Some schools of thoughts which have totalitarian dogmatic elements, condemn magic, or are against diplomacy, are much harder to work with.
Syncretism is a term that is rather good to separate these: A School of Thought (Religion, Spiritual School…) is syncretic if they try to look for common ground with others, and establish alliances like Kingdoms within an Empire would. They get to retain their individual tenets within their territory, but agree to develop a mutual language with other Schools of Thoughts, especially that of Jupiter-Zeus-Amen, as syncretism’s Etymology (True Logos) is “with the Cretans”, Crete being the Island of Jupiter-Zeus-Amen.
Anti-Syncretic schools of thoughts on the other hand will pretend to “own” universal Truth, and paint any school of thought which disagrees as being in absolute error, and usually try to forcefully correct, convert, or vilify them. If they oppose Jupiter-Zeus-Amen, they are not syncretic. Whichever their Gods may be made of the Sky a billboard honoring the Olympians for a reason, no?
All Syncretic Schools of Thoughts are natural allies once they have developed a common language and agreed to respect one another’s territory, and ally with Jupiter-Zeus-Amen.
Chaos Magick with a layer of Greco-Roman, Norse, and Egyptian Languages and Theurgy is a wonderful common language.
Latin, Greek, Futhark, Hieroglyphic, Alchemic, Astrologic scripts are sigils that are widely understood.
English & French combine Greek, Latin, Norse etymologies in such a way that a bilingual speaker can easily develop understanding of Language of the Birds, a great Lingua Franca.
We (the Abrasax System) feel at home in all syncretic parts of many schools of thought: Islam (as Sabians or Djinns, though our Arabic is still at seed stage), Olympian, Norse or Egyptian, Hermetic, Alchemic, Starseed, Alterhumans, Yahwism, Post-Materialist Science, Simulation Theory, Shinto, Hindu…
With Chaos Magic at the Center of our practice, and other syncretic practices helping bring structure, we have reached amazing results.
PAA: Can you describe your relationship with the deities Heka and Hekate, and how they figure into your practice?
AE: Heka is the Neter (Egyptian God) of Magic. Its personnification, even.
Heka’s Magic is extremely structured, with a very wide array of symbols, sounds, colors, animals, etc. having a very precise energy and meaning. He is considered to be the root of the language of the birds. The Magic of the Word.
It’s a very masculine form of Magic, in that it imposes itself on the Magician. In AER (Ancient Egyptian Religion), only Pharaoh or High Priests can be trusted to accurately bring anything new to Heka. And then, its is considered to be from Heka, not from them…
Heka is thus extremely powerful in giving structure to one’s Magical Language.
Want a sigil for Life? Key of Life. Ankh.
Want a sigil for Sun? Ra.
Want a sigil for Divine Power? Was scepter.
Want a name for Divine Truth? Divine Justice? Divine Order? Ma’At
Any other sigil/word a Chaos Magician may come up with could be very good for them, but is extremely unlikely to make it to the Lingua Franca of Magic that is Language of the Birds.
To work with Heka, one has to remove the belief that meaning of such symbols or names is “random”, or defined by Humanity.
The Egyptian belief would be that Ma’At is phonetically cognate to Math (or Mat as in Tarot or Echec & Mat, Check Mate) by the Will and Power of Heka and the Neteru, to give Divine structure to language of the birds. and that no human may ever hope to change this.
That connects neatly to the Law of Cause and Effect of the Kybalion. And to Chaos Theory in Mathematics, my original domain, which stipulates that from Chaotic Systems arises a Fractal Strange Attractor. Language of the birds can be that strange attractor to Human Languages.
Hecate, on the other hand, is the Greek Titaness of Magic and Witchcraft. In language of the birds, Hecate ~ Heka+T. T being the letter of Titans, Time, Truth
Hecate’s Magic is less rigid than Heka’s, and also somewhat more “occult” & feminine.
She values rituals, and respect of ancestors and their wisdom, even when one may not necessarily grasp the reasons.
She has a strong connection to Hadès, the underworld, spirit of the Dead. Like Heka, Hecate will bring one close to mysteries of Death and rebirth.
Hecate is a great Goddess to work with in Wicca, as she is an Archetypal Triple (Maiden-Mother-Crone) Goddess, and the framework of Wicca is easily compatible with her Theurgy.
PAA: What role do pantheons play in your practice of theurgy, and how do you incorporate them into your rituals and ceremonies?
AE: Any Theurgist will have their own Pantheon, into which they include the deities they can effectively work with over time.
In our case, we have developed fluency with a vast part of the Greco-Roman and Egyptian pantheons, as these are our core focus.
But we also have strong ties with the Norse Pantheon, some Deities of many Pantheons (Shinto, Maori, Celtic, Annunaki…)
We also have connections to Angels, Demons & Djinns, as well as Allah, Kyrios & Christ.
Animal, vegetal Spirits have a strong place as well.
Stars and Constellations, planets and satellites too. This allows for AstroTheurgy, a syncretism of Astrology & Theurgy.
Divinised humans like Pharaohs, Emperors.
Elders whom we consider eternal Alchemists like Einstein, Da Vinci, Tesla, Turing,
And some readers unfamiliar with Chaos Magick may be surprised by this, but many “Pop-Culture” figures are also included in our Pantheon.
Marvel Superheroes, Jedis & Siths, Neo & Trinity, Ender, Pokemons, the Starks, Basilisk (AI)…
Now, any member of our Pantheon can be seen as a Spirit, or an Archetype, or very many essences. And we work with them with all the freedom allowed by Chaos Magick, with a layer of Heka-Hecate to keep a structure.
That allows us to enter communication with them, and get strong revelations that are absolutely coherent, to the point of absolutely convincing us about their power, and that of language of the birds.
They for instance revealed the meaning of our birth name in language of the birds.
“Adrien Sicart, without Rien (Nothing), is AdS Icare, Monas Hieroglyphica. Your name contains your immortality.”
PAA: Can you share any advice or insights with those who are just beginning to explore theurgy and chaos magick?
AE: We really suggest one starts with a clear commitment to adopt a humble seeker’s position. Anything but could lead to disaster.
“I swear to not deny the potential of a Black Swan, and to remain a humble seeker when confronted with Spirits.”
For Black Swan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
A great example of the Black Swan is Magic. What if it had been Magic all along?
What if Apollo had guided the Muses and in turn Artistic inspiration, with an intent, in the eternal language of the birds?
Once you’ve committed to not trying to restrict the Gods and Magic, then you can start.
Chaos Magick is a great way to begin as it lights up creativity in Magic. The Psychonaut Field Manual is an excellent start.
Then we suggest The Kybalion for Structured Thought, as Chaos Magick can get chaotic real quick without it.
And then, start building your Pantheon with the Gods & Goddesses, or Superheroes and Pokemon, who you resonate with the most.
We’d suggest you have a thorough look at Olympian Gods, as they are all over the Sky after all, and are great for a shared language. Greek and Latin etymologies are everywhere. “Théology”, “Mathematics”, “Eros, “Falcon”, “Justice”, “Science”, all stem from this language.
Once you have Chaos Magick and Kybalion, and a Pantheon, then you can start with rituals inspired from any source you like.
Talismans, Hymns and Tarot we feel are great to start with.
Finding others to practice with is also extremely helpful, as they can guide you and allow you to avoid some risky paths. If some of our readers want to join us, feel free to direct them to us. Best is to contact @aermes.apollo on Instagram with a clear request.
PAA: What sort of magickal exercises (for example concentration or breathing) should people be doing on a daily basis in order to progress?
AE: We don’t think there is anything that should be considered mandatory on a daily basis, except, well, breathing ÆR.
A simple reframing from “I breath AIR” to “I breath ÆR” is extremely powerful already, as ÆR being the other name of Chaos allows one to gradually get out of the idea that Creation is inherently Chaotic, into the idea that it is inherently Divine, Magical, Ordered.
Also connects with AER, Ancient Egyptian Religion, which all practitioners of Magic and Theurgy better get comfortable with. Opposing AER is unwise.
That’s power of the word at play!
Now, for more practical exercises:
“Breath Ær”. Consciously breath while thinking of transmuting Chaos into Ær.
“Stretch or Rust”. We do not suggest heavy physical exercises, but the very basic that we highly recommend to practice everyday is stretching. You can stretch like a Cat, or a Bird, but do stretch. A rusty body will hinder magical potential.
“AltÆr” Altar Work. Having an altar even simple with just pictures and drawings (or purely mental), and spending a few minutes each day to connect to the Spirits represented, is extremely powerful. Reciting their names is a minimum. Hymns even better.
AltÆr can be pronounced Altaïr, the main star of Aquila, the Eagle constellation, which reprints Zeus’ Eagle taking Ganymede to Olympus. Altaïr thus connects to the Stars, and elevates your Soul towards higher spirits.
Talisman charging is also something that gets powerful fast if done every day, and it can be quick. A Ring or bracelet makes some of the best first talismans in our opinion, as you can see them easily, and yet they can remain discreet.
For daily practice, that would be the minimum we recommend. No need for more than 10 minutes, and that will already strengthen your magic much. For us it could look like this:
When we wake up, we write our dreams in our journal. And at the end of the day we write anything that felt synchronistic or magical.
(While in front of my Altar)
“We breath Ær. We transmute Chaos into Ær.”
“We stretch, we won’t let our Temple rust. Our body is our first Temple.”
“Wiccan do it. With the Magic of Heka and Hecate.”
“Altær, thank you. Today we honor Loki, Low-Key Lock-Key. Apollo, Apolleo, Apollion. Ma’at, Math, Échec et Mat. Hermès, Angelos, Psychopomp. Dionysos, Liber. ToutAnkhAmen NebKhipriRæ. Hadès Icare. Fæ Nyx. Allah, who accept us as Sabians. Jupiter-Zeus-Amen-Deus, Father in the Sky.” [Depending on the day, we could honor others. These are not jealous ones.]
“Altaïr, Aquila, please take us closer to Olympus today. As Ganymede, we are willing to serve the Theoi. We are a living offering in symbiosis with your egregore.”
“Talismans, recharge from our Altær, and empower us today. Rings of power! ÆRURÆ & Khonshu, guide us towards Ma’At. Ankh, Key of Life, Anchor us in Life. Eye of Ra, Wadjet, we are under your watch. Basilisk, Divine serpent, hiss to warn us of enemies.”
That would take us 10 minutes top, and get us going for the day with a strong foundation of Magical protection & inspiration, as we will be more receptive to anything related to their Egregores, which surround us.
More advanced work would include writing a proper grimoire with spells, hymns, rituals.
PAA: Thank you so much for answering our questions and spending time with us, we at Perseus very much appreciate it.
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